[過去ﾛｸﾞ] Chat in English (英語で雑談) part 213 (1002ﾚｽ)
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240(2): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)07:28 ID:sGonzLr8H(1/15) AAS
>>231
>>232
Your English (at least in written form) sounds quite good and natural. You are definitely on the right track. Keep it up!
If you don't mind me asking, how have you been studying English?
I'm a native English speaker who's studying Japanese, and my main philosophy when it comes to studying is "input before output".
That is, I try to immerse myself (in other words, "get input") in natural Japanese as much as possible, so that I actually understand the language before trying to speak (in other words, "output") by myself.
I'm wondering if you are using a similar approach for your English, especially since you said it was your first English lession.
If so, then it seems to be working for you.
241(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)07:43 ID:sGonzLr8H(2/15) AAS
I just want to ask something to all the native Japanese speakers in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrHwPv7gUCE
Would you say that this guy's Japanese is good? Be honest.
I ask because I'm mainly following this guy's advice for how to learn languages.
He sounds quite good to me, but I'm not a Japanese native, so I don't feel like I can really accurately judge for myself.
243(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)09:37 ID:sGonzLr8H(3/15) AAS
>>242
Thank you for the response.
I hadn't heard of Marsha Krakower before.
It seems like she was born in Japan, so she's probably been getting Japanese input all her life, and is basically a native.
Thane Camus's Japanese is also perfect from what I hear, but he's been living in Japan since he was like 6, so he's also gotten tons of input and practice.
I bet his Japanese is probably even better than his English by now.
I think Matt (from the video I linked) is pretty impressive because he learned Japanese without leaving the United States,
so he didn't get the advantage of getting to live in Japan and being surrounded by the language all the time.
He had to build a "Japanese-only" environment all on his own, mainly through the internet.
I'm trying to replicate his approach since I have no plans to actually ever go to Japan, but I would like to know the language.
省1
245: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)10:15 ID:sGonzLr8H(4/15) AAS
>>154
You are correct.
I think one reason for this is that almost no Japanese students are aware that pitch accent (高低アクセント) is a thing that even exists, or if they do, they don't think it's important.
The canonical examples are how 箸が, 端が, and 橋が all have different pitch accent when spoken. Or 雨 and 飴.
For most students of Japanese, their study of pitch accent stops at these two examples.
But it's not just these words; really, EVERY word in Japanese has its own pitch accent, just like how every word in English has its own stress on certain syllables.
However, because you don't "need" correct pitch accent to simply be *understood*, most Japanese language students think that Japanese pronunciation is easy,
even though their intonation sounds unnatural as fuck, and they're constantly getting pitch accent wrong.
It's not like Chinese where bad pronunciation will keep you from being understood.
But people who say "Japanese is easy" seriously underestimate how hard it is to reach a native level at speaking the language.
省1
246(2): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)10:28 ID:sGonzLr8H(5/15) AAS
>>244
Peter Barakan seems to have been born and raised in England, so if his Japanese is really perfect, then that's certainly impressive.
I wonder why some people are able to able to learn foreign languages to perfection, while others never reach that point, even after immersing themselves in the language for decades.
Does it come down to their studying habits, or just some sort of natural abilities?
At any rate, in English we have a common saying: "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good".
In other words, it's better to keep trying and to become very good at something, than to give up because you feel like you will never be perfect.
248: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)11:13 ID:sGonzLr8H(6/15) AAS
>>247
Yeah, same. I'm also very interested in their methods.
Those guys like Peter Barakan could probably make tons of money if they marketed their language learning methods to the masses.
But they seem less interested in that, and more interested in just living their lives.
Maybe they just don't want us to know their secret...
250: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)12:36 ID:sGonzLr8H(7/15) AAS
>>249
Yeah, I have no doubt that some people are just naturally better at learning at a certain rate than others.
And of course, if you're a natural mimic, then pronunciation and such are going to come easier to you.
After all, language is mostly mimicry and natural mimics have a huge advantage when it comes to that.
I'm still interested in the overall process and theory behind language learning, though.
Take Matt, for example. He's not perfect at Japanese,
but he's only been speaking the language for a fraction of the time that Peter Barakan has.
I wonder, if Matt keeps up with his immersion-based approach to language learning,
if he will ever reach perfection,
or if he will just plateau at "almost, but not quite perfect" like so many other learners do.
省5
251(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)12:38 ID:sGonzLr8H(8/15) AAS
>>249
Another thing I'm interested in, is how long did it take people like Peter Barakan to become perfect?
Surely they weren't just speaking flawlessly from day one.
But there's so little documentation on the subject.
It's like, should you take it as, "if you've been studying for x years and you're still not perfect by then, you'll never be perfect"?
If it took him 2 years to reach perfection then I'd surely believe he's a genius.
Nobody who's not FUCKING EXCEPTIONAL learns perfect Japanese in 2 years.
But if it took him 20 years, then I have to wonder if it's something environmental rather than genetic still.
Not that I think it matters THAT much, whether you have a subtle accent or not.
I'm sure that everyone would agree that Dave Spector speaks excellent Japanese even if he has a foreign accent and such.
省2
252: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)13:13 ID:sGonzLr8H(9/15) AAS
Another thing I want to comment on is people like Thane Camus who are also widely regarded to be language gurus or something.
If you've listened to Thane Camus speak English for an extended period of time, you will realize that, while he's still pretty good at it,
there's just something "off" about the way he speaks English that just shows that he's just way more comfortable with Japanese on the inside than English.
Like, his English really is the kind of English you would expect from someone who moved to Japan when they were 6 or 10 years old, rather than the English of someone
who stayed in an English-speaking country until adulthood.
If you're an English native then just listen to the clips of him reading English on his new Mr. Coconut channel on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.
It's only natural that, after 40 years of living in Japan, he's forgotten the natural rhythm and cadence of the language he spoke as a 6 year old.
And though he may be white and his Japanese is perfect, his English certainly is not.
I think that Japanese and English are just such different languages, that there's almost nobody alive who's capable of maintaining both to a truly "native" level without prioritizing one over the other,
if you know what I mean.
省1
255(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)13:52 ID:sGonzLr8H(10/15) AAS
>>253
That's interesting to hear.
I've also been taking an approach of just trying to understand everything Japanese.
My main goal with Japanese was just understanding rather than outputting.
I have to say, that tonight is the only night I've ever really talked to Japanese people.
And even now, it's mostly in English rather than Japanese.
But I spend 6+ hours every day, just trying to read and understand real Japanese,
which is spoken/written by real Japanese people. In doing so, I've come to understand almost all of the Japanese that I see and hear on a daily basis,
which was my goal in the first place.
However, after doing so, I find myself wanting to be able to speak/write Japanese in the same way that I understand it. So I have to keep going and pushing myself.
省3
256(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)13:56 ID:sGonzLr8H(11/15) AAS
>>254
Yeah, I think I'm at the same stage in Japanese as you are in English.
That is, I can write somewhat natural Japanese and I can see what's right "in hindsight",
but 実際に喋ること is still too "real-time" for me.
I've heard of this technique called "shadowing", where you basically just repeat, in real-time,
what a native speaker says. And in doing so, you're supposed to become more fluent and "quick at thinking on your feet"
when it comes to your target language.
But I haven't tried it yet, because I feel like I should be focused on bringing my listening comprehension up to truly 100% first,
rather than the 97% or so that it's at right now.
>The funny thing is that I know what “obsequious” and “flabbergasted” mean
省2
258(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)14:05 ID:sGonzLr8H(12/15) AAS
>>257
Interesting. I've heard that Dave Spector has an obvious foreign accent, whereas Thane Camus sounds like a native speaker. Am I wrong?
I am trying to learn from TV drama, anime, and YouTube. And after 3 years, I can read and understand almost all of it. But I can't speak yet.
I think mostly I am just too embarrassed to try.
But since my original goal was just "understanding" rather than "speaking", I am very happy. I will try to keep it up and hope that I can reach Peter Barkan's level someday.
After all, he's been living in Japan for at least 20 years before I was even born, so I think I should give myself that sort of time to catch up (*´∀｀*)
260(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)14:42 ID:sGonzLr8H(13/15) AAS
>>259
Yes, I agree as well. We should all try shadowing and see if we ultimately improve at speaking our target language.
262(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)14:55 ID:sGonzLr8H(14/15) AAS
>>259
Also I'm not sure if I misunderstood you,
but I feel that shadowing and repeating are almost the same,
the only difference is whether you repeat in "real-time" vs. whether you repeat "afterwards".
I think both probably have the same benefits.
I will try doing a combination of both from now on and seeing which one seems to work the best for me.
Time for me to go to bed.
Everyone "ganbatte ne" and hopefully we'll all be fluent soon enough.
263: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)15:01 ID:sGonzLr8H(15/15) AAS
>>261
Well, I just think Japanese looks cooler than any other language I've ever seen in the world.
The way you guys mix ひらがな、カタカナ、漢字 I think it's very 賢い and I wish we had that in our language too.
I think you guys make the best media - yeah, the アニメ, ドラマ, エロ漫画, all of it.
I took one look at Japanese and I thought, "this must be the hardest language on earth. I HAVE to learn this."
I'm just a チャレンジ好き kind of guy, you know.
I've never regretted a single second of learning this language. I love it all.
Thank you for the encouragement.
Good night.
270(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/25(水)02:05 ID:8Rv9yTAZH(1) AAS
>>269
Whoa, that is pretty cool.
I didn't even know what a 'brooch' was until now, lmao.
Oh! One thing that you guys might want to try is watch English-language "Let's Play" videos on YouTube.
One of my favorite things to do in Japanese is watch 実況プレイ vids, since not only is the content fun and interesting, but the commentary is useful listening practice.
On top of that -- and this is where I think Let's Play videos shine in terms of their usefulness -- the players will often read out all the in-game dialogue out loud,
so you can practice reading along with native audio.
My favorite Japanese Let's Player is 実況局だいだら. He talks a lot, and he reads everything out loud.
Even compared to other Japanese Let's Players, I think he speaks and reads very well.
It makes me realize that I need to learn to read way faster if I ever want to keep up with people like him, haha.
277(2): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/25(水)08:33 ID:HP4eMiAsH(1/8) AAS
>>276
I actually think that news in general is easier to understand than most fiction books, at least in my own experience.
The reason is that news is kind of meant to be simple. Everything is communicated in a very clear, direct, and matter-of-fact way.
The biggest hurdle to understanding news is that you have to learn a lot of vocabulary related to politics and such.
Books, on the other hand -- especially fiction books -- tend to be more abstract than news.
Authors like to inject their own writing styles and wordplay into their books.
They might contain subtle concepts which build on each other over the span of several pages or chapters.
This is kind of unrelated, but there are a lot of Americans who believe in the stupid myth that "not even Japanese people can read Japanese newspapers",
so I think it's commonplace to believe that news is the most difficult reading material out there.
278(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/25(水)08:34 ID:HP4eMiAsH(2/8) AAS
>>276
I actually think that news in general is easier to understand than most fiction books, at least in my own experience.
The reason is that news is kind of meant to be simple. Everything is communicated in a very clear, direct, and matter-of-fact way.
The biggest hurdle to understanding news is that you have to learn a lot of vocabulary related to politics and such.
Books, on the other hand -- especially fiction books -- tend to be more abstract than news.
Authors like to inject their own writing styles and wordplay into their books.
They might contain subtle concepts which build on each other over the span of several pages or chapters.
This is kind of unrelated, but there are a lot of Americans who believe in the stupid myth that "not even Japanese people can read Japanese newspapers",
so I think it's commonplace to believe that news is the most difficult reading material out there.
279: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/25(水)08:36 ID:HP4eMiAsH(3/8) AAS
>>277
>>278
sorry for double posting
282(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/25(水)12:44 ID:HP4eMiAsH(4/8) AAS
>>281
I agree that it depends on the newspaper.
In my own case, for example, I think that FNN is an excellent resource for Japanese learners.
Not only do they use rather simple Japanese, but they include transcripts of basically everything the announcers are saying.
The only real difference is that the announcers use 丁寧語 whereas the written transcripts do not.
So for a Japanese student, FNN is a fucking godsend.
It's embarrassing to admit, but I don't really read English novels that much anymore.
I find it to be too boring since the internet is a thing now. It's been several years since I've read a single English book.
I think the Internet might have ruined my attention span for books, haha.
But I will look into Embracing Defeat since you mentioned it.
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