[過去ﾛｸﾞ] Chat in English (英語で雑談) part 213 (1002ﾚｽ)
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245: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)10:15 ID:sGonzLr8H(4/15) AAS
>>154
You are correct.
I think one reason for this is that almost no Japanese students are aware that pitch accent (高低アクセント) is a thing that even exists, or if they do, they don't think it's important.
The canonical examples are how 箸が, 端が, and 橋が all have different pitch accent when spoken. Or 雨 and 飴.
For most students of Japanese, their study of pitch accent stops at these two examples.
But it's not just these words; really, EVERY word in Japanese has its own pitch accent, just like how every word in English has its own stress on certain syllables.
However, because you don't "need" correct pitch accent to simply be *understood*, most Japanese language students think that Japanese pronunciation is easy,
even though their intonation sounds unnatural as fuck, and they're constantly getting pitch accent wrong.
It's not like Chinese where bad pronunciation will keep you from being understood.
But people who say "Japanese is easy" seriously underestimate how hard it is to reach a native level at speaking the language.
省1
246(2): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)10:28 ID:sGonzLr8H(5/15) AAS
>>244
Peter Barakan seems to have been born and raised in England, so if his Japanese is really perfect, then that's certainly impressive.
I wonder why some people are able to able to learn foreign languages to perfection, while others never reach that point, even after immersing themselves in the language for decades.
Does it come down to their studying habits, or just some sort of natural abilities?
At any rate, in English we have a common saying: "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good".
In other words, it's better to keep trying and to become very good at something, than to give up because you feel like you will never be perfect.
247(1): (ｽﾌﾟｯｯ Sd82-E2fJ) 2019/09/24(火)11:02 ID:KkiC7pOjd(1) AAS
>>246
You don't need to be perfect. I can't speak English that much. But I'm interested in perfect speaking person. I mean I want to know how they learned foreign language.
248: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)11:13 ID:sGonzLr8H(6/15) AAS
>>247
Yeah, same. I'm also very interested in their methods.
Those guys like Peter Barakan could probably make tons of money if they marketed their language learning methods to the masses.
But they seem less interested in that, and more interested in just living their lives.
Maybe they just don't want us to know their secret...
249(2): (ﾜｯﾁｮｲWW 86de-8ldJ) 2019/09/24(火)11:51 ID:mWkzQVGx0(1/2) AAS
>>246
I'm not trying to downplay their effort and of course practice and immersion are the most important but I think some people are just naturally good at languages.
There are people who are good at context reading, pronouncing clearly, giving a speech, writing a novel and then there ard some who are not.
Even natives have varying levels of abilities at their language like that so it's only natural that the same applies to language learners.
250: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)12:36 ID:sGonzLr8H(7/15) AAS
>>249
Yeah, I have no doubt that some people are just naturally better at learning at a certain rate than others.
And of course, if you're a natural mimic, then pronunciation and such are going to come easier to you.
After all, language is mostly mimicry and natural mimics have a huge advantage when it comes to that.
I'm still interested in the overall process and theory behind language learning, though.
Take Matt, for example. He's not perfect at Japanese,
but he's only been speaking the language for a fraction of the time that Peter Barakan has.
I wonder, if Matt keeps up with his immersion-based approach to language learning,
if he will ever reach perfection,
or if he will just plateau at "almost, but not quite perfect" like so many other learners do.
省5
251(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)12:38 ID:sGonzLr8H(8/15) AAS
>>249
Another thing I'm interested in, is how long did it take people like Peter Barakan to become perfect?
Surely they weren't just speaking flawlessly from day one.
But there's so little documentation on the subject.
It's like, should you take it as, "if you've been studying for x years and you're still not perfect by then, you'll never be perfect"?
If it took him 2 years to reach perfection then I'd surely believe he's a genius.
Nobody who's not FUCKING EXCEPTIONAL learns perfect Japanese in 2 years.
But if it took him 20 years, then I have to wonder if it's something environmental rather than genetic still.
Not that I think it matters THAT much, whether you have a subtle accent or not.
I'm sure that everyone would agree that Dave Spector speaks excellent Japanese even if he has a foreign accent and such.
省2
252: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)13:13 ID:sGonzLr8H(9/15) AAS
Another thing I want to comment on is people like Thane Camus who are also widely regarded to be language gurus or something.
If you've listened to Thane Camus speak English for an extended period of time, you will realize that, while he's still pretty good at it,
there's just something "off" about the way he speaks English that just shows that he's just way more comfortable with Japanese on the inside than English.
Like, his English really is the kind of English you would expect from someone who moved to Japan when they were 6 or 10 years old, rather than the English of someone
who stayed in an English-speaking country until adulthood.
If you're an English native then just listen to the clips of him reading English on his new Mr. Coconut channel on YouTube and you'll see what I mean.
It's only natural that, after 40 years of living in Japan, he's forgotten the natural rhythm and cadence of the language he spoke as a 6 year old.
And though he may be white and his Japanese is perfect, his English certainly is not.
I think that Japanese and English are just such different languages, that there's almost nobody alive who's capable of maintaining both to a truly "native" level without prioritizing one over the other,
if you know what I mean.
省1
253(1): (ﾜｯﾁｮｲ 46e3-XrkK) 2019/09/24(火)13:35 ID:tAYW/YEb0(6/8) AAS
>>240
Thank you, I feel relieved to hear that my English sounds natural to you.
I have been learning in a way surprisingly similar to yours, except that I had no clear intention to do that, so to speak.
My first exposure to English was 12 years ago when I entered my junior high.
I have since immersed myself in my favorite movies, magazines, etc. in the language. I could say I was also an avid learner of the grammar at school.
However, I was, or I have been, too lazy and shy to find opportunity to have real conversations.
254(1): (ﾜｯﾁｮｲ 46e3-XrkK) 2019/09/24(火)13:41 ID:tAYW/YEb0(7/8) AAS
>>240
(cont. >> 253)
As a result, I have a fairly rich vocabulary pool in my head but most of the words and phrases in it remain “passive”.
The reason I sound not too awkward in written form is that there is virtually no time limit to review and rewrite it, often with the aid of dictionaries, so they sound more natural.
I can tell whether a sentence is natural or not “in hindsight”. I just cannot form it on the spot.
The funny thing is that I know what “obsequious” and “flabbergasted” mean but in the online lesson I find myself struggling to switch tenses, and there is always a long and awkward pause before I can finally output a grammatically decent sentence.
255(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)13:52 ID:sGonzLr8H(10/15) AAS
>>253
That's interesting to hear.
I've also been taking an approach of just trying to understand everything Japanese.
My main goal with Japanese was just understanding rather than outputting.
I have to say, that tonight is the only night I've ever really talked to Japanese people.
And even now, it's mostly in English rather than Japanese.
But I spend 6+ hours every day, just trying to read and understand real Japanese,
which is spoken/written by real Japanese people. In doing so, I've come to understand almost all of the Japanese that I see and hear on a daily basis,
which was my goal in the first place.
However, after doing so, I find myself wanting to be able to speak/write Japanese in the same way that I understand it. So I have to keep going and pushing myself.
省3
256(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)13:56 ID:sGonzLr8H(11/15) AAS
>>254
Yeah, I think I'm at the same stage in Japanese as you are in English.
That is, I can write somewhat natural Japanese and I can see what's right "in hindsight",
but 実際に喋ること is still too "real-time" for me.
I've heard of this technique called "shadowing", where you basically just repeat, in real-time,
what a native speaker says. And in doing so, you're supposed to become more fluent and "quick at thinking on your feet"
when it comes to your target language.
But I haven't tried it yet, because I feel like I should be focused on bringing my listening comprehension up to truly 100% first,
rather than the 97% or so that it's at right now.
>The funny thing is that I know what “obsequious” and “flabbergasted” mean
省2
257(1): (ｽﾌﾟｯｯ Sd82-E2fJ) 2019/09/24(火)14:01 ID:EDtPEXy7d(1) AAS
>>251
Thane Camus and Dave spector are excellent. But they both learned from they were children. Children learn language faster than adults.
I checked out how Peter Barakan learned Japanese. He learned Japanese at the college maybe 4years. But he couldn't speak Japanese when he graduated.
After he came to Japan, He learned from TV drama and conversation.
258(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)14:05 ID:sGonzLr8H(12/15) AAS
>>257
Interesting. I've heard that Dave Spector has an obvious foreign accent, whereas Thane Camus sounds like a native speaker. Am I wrong?
I am trying to learn from TV drama, anime, and YouTube. And after 3 years, I can read and understand almost all of it. But I can't speak yet.
I think mostly I am just too embarrassed to try.
But since my original goal was just "understanding" rather than "speaking", I am very happy. I will try to keep it up and hope that I can reach Peter Barkan's level someday.
After all, he's been living in Japan for at least 20 years before I was even born, so I think I should give myself that sort of time to catch up (*´∀｀*)
259(2): (ｽﾌﾟｯｯ Sd82-E2fJ) 2019/09/24(火)14:27 ID:Ir48VYXed(1) AAS
>>258
Thane Camus's accent is better than Peter Barakan.
I think shadowing is very good for listening. Repeating is good for speaking.
260(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)14:42 ID:sGonzLr8H(13/15) AAS
>>259
Yes, I agree as well. We should all try shadowing and see if we ultimately improve at speaking our target language.
261(1): (ｽﾌﾟｯｯ Sd82-E2fJ) 2019/09/24(火)14:51 ID:M1IYSvVBd(1) AAS
>>260
You will be able to be like him (*'▽'*)
Why did you choose Japanese?
262(1): 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)14:55 ID:sGonzLr8H(14/15) AAS
>>259
Also I'm not sure if I misunderstood you,
but I feel that shadowing and repeating are almost the same,
the only difference is whether you repeat in "real-time" vs. whether you repeat "afterwards".
I think both probably have the same benefits.
I will try doing a combination of both from now on and seeing which one seems to work the best for me.
Time for me to go to bed.
Everyone "ganbatte ne" and hopefully we'll all be fluent soon enough.
263: 名無しさん＠日本語勉強中 (CA 0H69-Dkz/) 2019/09/24(火)15:01 ID:sGonzLr8H(15/15) AAS
>>261
Well, I just think Japanese looks cooler than any other language I've ever seen in the world.
The way you guys mix ひらがな、カタカナ、漢字 I think it's very 賢い and I wish we had that in our language too.
I think you guys make the best media - yeah, the アニメ, ドラマ, エロ漫画, all of it.
I took one look at Japanese and I thought, "this must be the hardest language on earth. I HAVE to learn this."
I'm just a チャレンジ好き kind of guy, you know.
I've never regretted a single second of learning this language. I love it all.
Thank you for the encouragement.
Good night.
264: (ｽﾌﾟｯｯ Sd82-E2fJ) 2019/09/24(火)15:08 ID:z/3ytsypd(1) AAS
>>262
See you later.(*・ω・*)ノ
I didn't explain it well. I repeat just one phrase. I repeat the same phrase over and over. After that I totally memorize that phrase's pronunciation accent and intonation.
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